Matt Simon, VP of Hill & Hamilton, explains how he pushed his agency to the limits of current insurance tech and why that drew him to work on Neon with Seth Zaremba.
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Syd Roe 0:00
Guys, I am super pumped to welcome you back to Episode Two of B atomic airwaves. Today I have with me a very special guest. He’s someone that I actually met. Gosh, I think three years ago now through elevate, which is a national independent agent conference put on by agency nation. He sat on a panel and absolutely crushed it. And ever since then I’ve been following his journey and have come to see him as not only someone who’s an incredibly well versed and experienced insurance agent, but also a very savvy business owner. So today I have with me Matt Simon from Helen Hamilton. Matt, how are you doing?
Matt Simon 0:51
I’m doing well. I was probably the kindest introduction I’ve ever had. So thank you.
Syd Roe 0:55
Well, I don’t know if I’ve gotten to tell you all that before but yeah, I have a lot of respect for everything that you’ve done. And
Syd Roe 1:03
the internet allows me to, you know, keep
Syd Roe 1:05
tabs and do a little internet stack and every once in a while and see how things are going. So really excited to be able to dig into a couple of topics with you today. But before we get into your experience with neon, and a little bit about how you guys are collecting, leveraging, using data and your agency, let’s give the audience a bit of foundation here into Matt Simon, who you are, can you give me like the Reader’s Digest version of Helen Hamilton?
Matt Simon 1:41
Sure, can. Yeah, so believe it or not, this is where our agency probably looks a little bit different than what a lot of people think of when they think of neon because they see this, you know, very forward facing, you know, technology kind of innovation. And when you look at our agency, one Hamilton’s actually been around since 1920. So we’ll celebrate our hundred year anniversary next year. And it’s an agency that I grew up in. So, you know, my father’s been in the insurance business from the time he graduated from college and so pretty standard, you know, growing up in a family business and the insurance industry, and really had, from my perspective, no desire whatsoever to go into insurance. And then yet, you know, 13 years later, here I am. So I spent a little bit of time with an insurance carrier in Columbus, Ohio by the name of motorist, I did that for about three years and realize kind of what the opportunities were, that were available on the agency side and just what the, from a technology standpoint, from a people standpoint, I just I saw really solid opportunities at the agency level that I just didn’t necessarily see at the carrier level. So I made that decision to leave the carrier come back to the agency and this September will be 13 years that I’ve been here in the agency, so Helen Hamilton is actually there, there are five agencies within our group, all located in Ohio. We have 3430, no 35 Associates now as of last week, and we’re just we kind of see ourselves as a blend of the traditional. So we still very much believe in the human aspect of what it is that we do. We don’t know that that’s ever going to go away. In fact, we’re, you know, petting our business on the fact that it won’t. But we’ve also recognized that some of the archaic ways that our industry does business now are not good from, from our perspective, from an efficiency standpoint, and I would argue far more importantly, or not good from a customer experience standpoint. So what we’ve really tried to do over the last 1213 years, is leverage the technology blended with the human aspect of what it is that we do, to kind of build this combination that ultimately drives a customer experience. It’s far better than, than what it is that historically Our industry and especially the independent agency side of our industry has been able to deliver to our clients. So where I am today, I oversee operations for those five offices. And I’m very much interested in that component of blending technology with the human element to be able to provide that kind of ultimate customer experience that, that I know as a 37 year old I look for in my own life. I want to be able to do that for clients of Helen Hamilton, both today and in the future.
Syd Roe 4:35
So speaking of technology, at what point in your journey and by the way, congratulations on 13 years that is, that’s no small feat to be running, owning growing a business for 13 years. At what point did you and Seth connect on and I know it wasn’t called me on at this point will be atomic. It probably wasn’t even a thought. But when did you guys start counting And talking about tech, where it is and then where it should be.
Matt Simon 5:07
Yeah, so man, Seth, and I go back probably 12 years at this point. Of course, we weren’t talking about what’s ultimately become neon all the way back then. But he’s somebody that I’ve known for a long time. And you know, he’s one of those people that as soon as you meet them, you can’t help but respect him. And as I spent more and more time with him, that that respect only continued to grow and still does To this day, probably about four years ago, four and a half years ago. You know, Seth and I were in a meeting and you can kind of tell that something had clicked, he gets this look on his face whenever he’s been able to make a connection that from what I’ve found, nobody else in this industry or outside has been able to make. And so he and I chatted briefly after that meeting. And it was really kind of the birth of what Neon is. Today, and you’re right, of course, it wasn’t called neon back then we didn’t even know exactly what it is that that it was going to end up being. But we made this or he made this connection. And I think, you know, those early days, I was really just there more to reassure him that he he was wasn’t crazy. He was onto something here. But it was this concept of how it is that that we are able to aggregate and leverage our data to do exactly what it is that I described earlier, which is to be able to position ourselves to provide a better experience for the consumer. And I think if you look at its core, what neon represents, it’s exactly that it’s taking every component within an agency that is making data and making data can be phone calls, it can be emails, it can be, you know, policy information, that’s an agency management system. It can be marketing and prospecting data, but you know, all these functions that exists within any agency to somebody degree or another, are making data and the challenges that none of those data points for the most part in today’s world are connected in any meaningful way. And so what Seth had realized is, is if we can start to make the connections between these different data points, what kind of position does that put us in then to actually have a better understanding a better grasp of who our customers are, what it is that they value, how it is that we can go out and find more customers like them by being able to effectively market to that type of customer. And then how it is that we’re able to service them long term in a way that’s actually meaningful to them. And like I said, at its core at its foundation, it all starts with having that, that data and being able to aggregate that data in a meaningful way. And so, like I said, probably four, four and a half years ago, we started talking about that concept and continued over the years to build that out. And like I said, I mean that I think he’s said before that I’m one of the founding members, which is not actually There is no founding member other than Seth like this was 100% his idea he’s developed this and taken me along for the ride. But I think throughout that process more than anything, I’ve just been there to reassure him that what it is that he’s thinking is very much something that our industry is thirsty for. Maybe not everybody is going to see it and get on board with it. But I, I can guarantee that there is a segment of the independent agency channel that very much values what it is that Neon is able to deliver. And I would say it’s far less, far less about how long the agency has been in business. You know, how tech not technology, proficient the agency is it’s far more about a culture within an agency. I mean, we’re a 35 associate agency that’s been around for 100 years. And I think we value what it is that neon can do for us just as much as what an agency like sess who has been around for you know, 10 or 11 years and is essential. been built 100% based on technology. So that’s why I say I think it’s far more about a culture and a vision for what this industry is going to be able to deliver to consumers long term, and less about, you know, the size of agency, the location, the number of employees or anything else like that.
Syd Roe 9:18
I think that’s what makes your insets partnership so special to us. And there’s a number of reasons why it really is something, but the fact that you have sets agency, which I believe has been around for less time than you’ve been an agent, isn’t it? 10 years now? 11 years, something like that.
Matt Simon 9:38
That’s Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Whenever Seth and I first met, he was working for his uncle’s agency. So yeah, I was there whenever he started his agency from scratch.
Syd Roe 9:47
So he’s a start up, you know, scratch agent been around for about a decade. And then you’ve got your perspective coming in. As a well established, well run. You know, business, it’s been around for what, like you said, 100 years, you’ve got a huge reputation in your community. I mean, you take those two completely different businesses, cultures, and you put them together and say, Okay, how are we going to create this technology? I mean, that’s powerful.
Matt Simon 10:17
Yeah. I mean, you think about it, like, so much of, you know, what it is that we do in our industry. You know, I think at times we have this false perception of what value we deliver, to our clients to consumers. And a lot of times we get hung up on, you know, this idea of service and when you know, ask an agency what’s good service, that that answer his definition is probably gonna vary by agency, but I can tell you what, it’s not right. I mean, good service is not how fast we turn around a certificate good service is not how fast or the way in which we input data into any number of different techniques. systems that we’re forced to use nowadays like that, that really does not impact the consumer for the most part in any meaningful way. And so, you know, whenever you look at an agency like Seth’s and an agency like ours, and you say like, well, you, you really couldn’t be any more different. When you look at the actual metrics, yeah, you’re exactly right. But when you look at the vision and the culture, and what it is that we believe, that’s where we really start to converge. And I think that’s why that partnership is as meaningful as what it is, is because we both recognize that, at the foundational level, like we have to be able to have quality structured data to be able to make meaningful decisions that actually help impact and drive a better customer experience for our clients. And so, you know, you look at the data that Seth makes and the data that we make, and it’s no the data is no different. The only thing that’s different is the behaviors that lead to that final data point, that outcome, and that’s what it is that we’re trying To improve upon, we’re trying to improve upon those behaviors. We want to know the best possible behavior in the actual moment of interaction with a specific client that’s going to result in the best possible experience for that client. And so that’s, I think that’s really where, you know, he and I see eye to eye. And I think, you know, even though you’ve got two very different agencies, in terms of how it is that they operate, day to day, are very much aligned in where it is that they’re trying to go, you know, three 510 years down the road.
Syd Roe 12:33
Yeah, I mean, this is why I published the video that I did last week about how we think about data, because we, I mean, it’s hard to wrap your hands around the idea of data, but when you start to start thinking about it as a collection of behaviors, whether it’s the agency’s behaviors or the customer’s behaviors, and then you think about aggregating all those behaviors, and once I was talking to an agent Saturday afternoon and trying to explain this idea. You know, what’s really cool is think about your spouse, you have spent so much time with your spouse. And what you’re doing during that time is you’re collecting data points, right, you know, in your head. You know, they do the dishes every night at 6:30pm. They like to make sure the bed is made every morning, right? This is just a collection of data points that’s sitting inside your head. But it’s also a collection of behaviors. It’s real things that are happening in life. And what’s cool is once you start to aggregate those behaviors in your own head, you paint this picture of who they are. And then the best part is you can start to predict likelihoods based off of all that information you’ve collected about them. Right. So now I can start to figure out well, if you know if I’m gonna ask my spouse, hey, do you want to go to the dog park tonight? She’s probably going to say yes, but after I do the dishes at 6:30pm, right, I’m predicting her the thing that she’s going to say the thing that she’s going to do, because I have all that information in my head, it’s the same thing with your customers, right? So in a way, today, it’s really hard when you’re not meeting these people face to face anymore. You’re not seeing them in the community everyday, you’re not seeing them at the grocery store every day. How are you supposed to get to know these people? Which by the way, is the value proposition of every independent agent, right? How are you supposed to have a relationship with people that you don’t engage with, like that? And so what this aggregation of data in this technology can help you do is, is sort of, you know, replicate that that action that you would have in real life, do that same thing where you’re getting to know them, now you’re starting to predict their behavior. You’re building a relationship with them. It’s the same thing. It’s just online instead of offline. So yeah, so that kind of makes sense. I mean, am I hitting the ball there is it my little off In saying that you Yeah,
Matt Simon 15:01
you’re 100% right on. And the parallel that I would use your analogy is 100% accurate. We, I look at our own organization. And, you know, the account manager that that does the absolute best job for us does exactly what it is that you just said, right? So she’s been here for 20 plus years, she’s spent an entire career aggregating, you know, all these different data points on the clients that she’s been responsible for, for servicing for that period of time. And so not only is she proficient from the insurance side, from the technical side, but she knows all these little data points about those individual clients. And so when you ask clients or most the time, we don’t even have to ask them, they just volunteer it about, you know, what an amazing job Gina does for them. You know, it’s less about how quickly she turns around a certificate of insurance and it’s more about the entire experience that she delivers to that individual client, which most every agency out there is going to have a job. All right, but the challenge is number one that doesn’t scale really well. Right? So that’s been 20 years in the making that she’s, you know, aggregated all those data points, and put herself in the position that she’s in. So it doesn’t scale well. And how do you train for that? Right? So whenever Gina decides that the day comes that she’s ready to retire, like how do we train someone to step into that role, and pick up right where it is that she leaves off? It’s impossible to do with the way that our industry is structured currently. And whenever you start looking at what it is from a big picture perspective, that Neon is able to deliver, you know, we’re actually now leveraging technology Exactly. Like I said, when we started out so we’re not removing the human from this by any means. In fact, I think we’re empowering the human even more than what they are today, because we’re leveraging technology to do the things that yes, humans can do. But technology is far more proficient and makes us far more efficient in our day to day interactions with those, those individual clients. So, you know, for us, it’s really about looking at Okay, so we’ve got, you know, account managers that have been able to position themselves exactly the way that Gina has. And I’m incredibly thankful that, you know, they’re there in our organization as any agency would be. But like I said, very tough to scale, very difficult to train to backfill them whenever they’re ready to step away. And the reality is the technology exists that allows us to do that. And that’s what I see whenever I look at least one component of what I see when I look at neon.
Syd Roe 17:36
So looking back, like four or five years ago, when you guys first started these having these conversations, what were some of the roadblocks that you ran into with the current system. So you know, aggregating data and leveraging data, what were I guess, I’m assuming and here’s lay that assumption out really quick. I’m assuming that you probably did. First, try to really work within the confines of the current system, and maybe just modify a few things and say, Okay, we’ll, you know, we’ll, we’ll manually put our data into different places or something like that, right. But guessing that as you come into that it got a little bit more time consuming, and maybe the system wasn’t able to do everything you needed it to do. So what were some of those things, those roadblocks that you ran into? As you started to put this idea, onto paper, put it, turn it into a reality?
Matt Simon 18:33
Yeah, so there’s really two issues that we run into. So number one is the structure of data. So in order for artificial intelligence, machine learning in order for us to be able to leverage any of the technologies that that exists that allow us to do what it is that we wanted to do, which was to empower our associates with the right type of information, the right type of set of behaviors in the exact moment of interaction with the client, we needed to have a structure of data basically meaning that how it is that we input data. And our agency is the same way as how Seth inputs data in his agency, and every other agency that would be a user of neon. And if you look at the way that the industry is structured today, certainly the way it was structured four and a half years ago, there is no structure of data, right? So every agency and we’re as much guilty as anybody, you know, I said, we have five agencies in Ohio, you know, we actually found that different, different offices, our different offices, we’re actually inputting data differently. So number one is the structure of data so it didn’t exist and to my knowledge until neon came along. It still doesn’t exist, but we can’t make any kind of meaningful statistical analysis. We can’t make any kind of behavioral suggestions to our associates in the moment, if we don’t have the accurate the proper structure of data. The second big component is quantity of data. And so if you look at any individual, independent agency, take out the outliers that have, you know, 50,000 users, but most independent agency, certainly, you know, the 80% that have, you know, 15 employees or less in their lifetime, they’re never going to have the quantity of data to be able to make those same statistics statistically accurate predictions to their associates in the moment of service with that specific client. So the challenge became, how do we structure this technology so that we can actually now start to aggregate data across a group of like minded agents, who all understand that they’re lending their data Not anything personal. And so nothing specific about the client like name, social security number, date of birth, none of that information, but the behavioral information that’s specific to their clients lending that data to the aggregate, in return, to be able to get the insights on their specific clients and on the types of clients that they want to be able to go out and attract and market to, and be able to bring into their agency to be able to get the insights back from that aggregate that actually helps them accomplish that, that allows them to do that. And so if you look at both of those two things, the structure the data, the quality of the data, did not exist four and a half years ago, and you’re right, like we tried to make it work every way feasible, you know, it was far easier for us to work with within the technology that already existed in our industry, and try to build this with them. But the reality is, is you know that what we’re talking about, especially when you start talking about the quality of data, the aggregation of data. It does it scares a lot of people away. You know, a lot of agencies are looking at saying Nope, that’s my data, no one else is going to touch it. And I think when I talk about Seth and I, Kevin kind of having the same vision, that’s one of the things that we agree on is that there is a segment there’s a number of agents across the country that understand what it is that they’re actually doing whenever they lend their data to the aggregate. They’re not providing anything specific, anything identifiable to their individual clients. They’re lending the behaviors of those clients to the aggregate in order to get the insights that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to achieve on their own.
Syd Roe 22:41
Go into the going back to the topic of structured data. And this is something that I’ve been wrestling with because I think what makes the independent agent channel so strong is also sort of a weak point, which is our independence. We like to everybody likes to do things their own way. Did you have an issue And I mean, there are 13 agencies in the pilot group at this point. So I guess maybe I’m not asking you to speak for all of them. But if you’ve in conversations, you know, with them, and they’ll all be on the podcast, by the way to those who are listening, so you’ll be able to hear from all of them as well. But in conversations with them, how do you guys? What’s that mean? Saying having to say, Well, yeah, okay, we’re all going to do things the same way. We’re all going to figure out a way to structure our data and have our processes work pretty similarly. I mean, was that scary? Did that ever feel like now I’m having to give up a piece of my independence, something that makes me unique.
Matt Simon 23:40
Now, you know, for us,
Matt Simon 23:43
I can tell you, unequivocally No. And I would venture to guess that the other pilot agencies feel the same way. Because if you think about it, what makes us unique, what makes us independent? Again, it’s not how it is. It’s not how we input data. It’s not how we issue a certificate of insurance. It’s not How we send a client an ID card. What makes us unique, what makes us independent is the actual experience that we deliver to a client. It’s the relationships that we have with our clients. And so what really what Neon is doing is it’s taking the components of an agency, that that have to happen the operations components of an agency. And it’s, it’s building structure around those components. And it’s aggregating that data so that we’re able to achieve insights that we wouldn’t otherwise be able to achieve. And that’s what I’m talking about, whenever I say, actually empower our people, the human element of what it is that we’re trying to achieve, far more so than what we can do today. So for us, I know for me personally, the way that I looked at this is that this actually helps us become more independent. This helps us provide a better experience to our clients, in an ideal world, a better experience to a greater number of clients than what we’re otherwise able to achieve today. And if we’re if that requires hires us to, you know, aggregate our data with other like minded agents, then I’m 100% all in on that, because how it is that we input data, how it is that we structure our processes here internally within our agency, things that our clients never see. That does not drive the experience that our clients have, yes, they care about how quick they get a certificate, yes, they care about, you know how quickly we turn things around. But they don’t care how it is that we input data. They don’t care what processes we have in place within our agency, all they care about is that the experience that they get from us is better than anything else that they believe they could get elsewhere. And by aggregating that data and providing the insights back to us as an agency, we’re going to be able to do that.
Syd Roe 25:44
So taking this down to the individual agency level right now because man is something that we’re going to be working on for the future. Has Helen Hamilton started to use data in ways that could prepare you guys for neon. I know you’ve talked about Net Promoter Score, would love to talk about that. But I guess just, you know, the question being Do you have to have me on to, you know, to be able to to get the benefits of collecting and using your data? Or can you start to do it now?
Matt Simon 26:21
Yeah. So the easy answer is yes, like you can start to do it now.
Matt Simon 26:28
The challenge, I think, and this is what it is that we’re already running into, is that the way that we do it now, and NPS is a perfect example, so I’ll get to that in a minute. But the way that we do it now is still very much that siloed off, you know, data sets that exists within our agency, and I would hazard a guess that exists within a number of other agencies across the country. So, you know, we’re collecting data. So HubSpot is a good example. We collect prospecting and marketing data for how it is that we find and market to prospective clients. And so, you know, we have that data set that all exists within the HubSpot platform. So we’ve kind of got this one view of a potential customer prior to the time that they actually become a client. And whenever they do become a client, then they go into our agency management system so that we can download the policy information. So that we can, you know, track attachments and you know, basically everything that we’re required to do to be able to service that customer. So that’s a second silo of information. We’ve got all the communication that goes back and forth between our associates and prospective clients or clients. So you know, the phone calls, the emails, anything that takes place on social, you know, those are all separate silos of information. And every one of these silos when I talk about, you know, this, this silo of information, these are all incredibly important data points on our clients in aggregate, and more importantly, on each individual client. But we have no way of connecting them right now. So we can do all these things. And that’s why I said We can leverage this technology, we can be viewed as an agency that’s on the forefront of technology. And for what it is, it’s available in the market today, I would say we are we’re using a lot of these things. But we’re not getting the full benefit that we could. Because we have no way to actually connect all these different silos of information to get a holistic view of not only our entire book of business, but get a holistic view of each one of our individual clients to really truly understand how it is that we found this client in the first place. What it is that we did, when we marketed to this client that actually led to the sale, you know how that conversation went, whenever we sold the account, what it is that we’ve done to service
that account over, you know, eight or 10 years that they’ve stayed with us. So, you know, I talked about getting to NPS like that’s, that’s a good example of one of the technologies that we’re using that we’re leveraging within our agency. So we’re able to look now at an individual client level and at an aggregate and start to get a better idea. idea of what it is that we can actually do as an agency to influence our retention. So I always look at it from the perspective from the industry, we look at retention, it’s a backward-looking metric. It’s what was your retention last month or last quarter or last year? But what does that number actually do to help you influence your retention going forward, just knowing what that number is? Yeah, that’s important. But more importantly, is knowing why that number is what it is. And I would argue even more important than that, is being able to drill down to the individual client level, and understand what it is that we could potentially do to save someone to be able to retain an account that we’re in jeopardy of losing, that we wouldn’t know of otherwise until that, you know, retention report showed up the next month in the next quarter. And so the net promoter system has allowed us to do that. So you know, those surveys go out, we hear back from our clients, we’re able to, to segment the promoters from the past as well. From the detractors and be able to take action on those that are passive and attractors to try to bring them up to a level that we have a higher likelihood of retaining them. So when you ask the question, is there anything that you can do to prepare for neon before you’re actually on neon? That’s a really good example of one. But where I say you don’t get the full benefit of it is, you know, one of the things we’re most excited about is when we are on the neon platform. Now, we’re actually able to take that specific data point that net promoter score, and we’re able to aggregate it with every other data point that we have on that individual client that provides us a far more holistic view of that specific client. And more importantly, we know what behaviors need to be deployed in the moment of interaction with that client, to put us in the best possible position to retain that client because we’ve provided them with the best experience that we possibly could. And so yeah, that’s a long winded answer to your question. But yeah, there’s things that you can do now. That helps To prepare you for neon, but you really only get the full power of what it is that Neon is able to deliver. Whenever you’re able to aggregate that structured data with a number of other like minded agents and layer artificial intelligence and machine learning on top of that, to begin drawing conclusions on how those clients are going to perform, you know, if, if you do this, if you say this if you interact with him and this way, if you have this many touch points throughout the year, whatever, whatever the case may be, that’s what the, the, the structured, aggregated data is going to allow us to be able to achieve those types of insights.
Syd Roe 34:40
Honestly, I’ve never talked to an agency who has been able to dig as deep into the NPS as you guys have because I know there are agencies who look at the three buckets, you know, passive clients who are passive clients who are detractors and then obviously clients who are promoters. Really a lot of people focus on those promoters and say, Okay, how can we get referrals out of those promoters, we just want to get more business. But we you guys have, really, in a very transparent, honest, authentic way is drilled into the other two buckets that the passives and the detractors and said, Okay, let’s create, you know, sub groups, right? So how do we split out where these clients are touching different producers in our agency different carriers in our agency different account reps in our agency and what did those interactions look like and why and how can we improve them so we move everyone into that promoter bucket. So I’m going to throw out a question to those of you guys who are still listening. Would you be up for a and I’m not even really sure what to call this because I don’t know if I’ve seen anything quite like it yet in the indie agent channel, but some sort of
Syd Roe 33:00
manual or roadmap
Syd Roe 33:01
that Matt and I would create on how to how what Net Promoter Score is, how to get it to work in your agency, and then how to get how to actually use the data in a meaningful way to move your business forward? Is that something that you guys would like because Matt and I have thrown around the idea, and I’ll be in Ohio once a month, but if it’s not something that you guys would be interested in, or you know, we would actually watch and get something from them. You know, obviously, it would be wouldn’t be something that we would want to spend time on. So let me know hit me on like Facebook, email, LinkedIn, I’m on all the media channels. So just hit me somewhere. And let me know if that’s something you’re interested in. Matt, anything that we should cover before we hit end here? Anything that I didn’t ask that you’re like said, you know, we’ll get off the call. You’ll be like said Why didn’t you ask that question? What the heck, man
Matt Simon 34:02
Yeah, yeah, I’ll probably think of it five minutes from now. But yeah, I would say we, we covered, we covered quite a bit here.
Matt Simon 34:10
You know, I
Matt Simon 34:13
I look at what it is that that neon was, whenever the discussions first started and where it is today and really couldn’t be more proud of what it is that Seth has built. And I think the reactions and the feedback that we continue to get, it’s something that this industry for a long time has been looking for. And I also think, you know, I’ll get back to my very first point about for now, I’m talking about us specifically, and I think there’s a number of agencies out there that kind of feel the same way that we do about what it is that we’re trying to do. So there’s so much speculation right now in our industry, about you know, the people component of it that’s going away, that technology is going to be able to solve everything and to an extent there is a lot the technology can do in our in Industry far more than what it’s doing today. It’s not being leveraged nearly to the degree that it could. But I also think that there are components of this industry where no technology is ever going to be able to replace a human. And so I think we need to move beyond this discussion of an either or it should not be it’s either human or it’s technology it needs to be in and it’s, it’s humans, and it’s technology. And if we can start to get to that point where we recognize that, you know, we’re not leveraging technology to its greatest potential, and we can, we can actually start to make the investments and move in that direction. It’s going to empower our people far more than what they are today. So, you know, for us I look at you know, a lot of our associates were nervous about, you know, making a transition like this for fear that technology is going to replace them. And absolutely not, nothing could be further from the truth that technology is going to help them be far more effective in what it is that they do day to day, not just more efficient. In terms of data entry, more effective in terms of how it is that they’re able to build relationships with the clients they already have, and like I said before, hopefully, a greater number of clients than what they’re able to, to manage today because of this lack of connectivity across the silos of data points within our agency. So I mean, that’s high level, but that’s a man that’s really what we’re passionate about. That’s what we’re, we’re looking forward to. As this continues to evolve.